026 - From Management Mess To Leadership Success With Scott Miller




Chief Marketing Officer at Franklin Covey
NYT Best Selling Author
Sold 20k Copies of his book Management Mess To Leadership Success in under 100 days 



Show Notes

Josh Tapp 0:00
What's up everybody? Josh Tapp here again and welcome back to the lucky Titan podcast. So today, we have Scott Miller on the mic and Scott is the CMO and VP at Franklin Covey, the world renowned leadership organization. And Scott went on to write his own book called management mass to leadership success. This book went on to sell over 20,000 copies in only 100 days. Scott is an expert and has taught all around the world about how to take the mess that is your management and turn it into a huge leadership success. And we've got Scott on the mic today to share with us how we can do that in our own businesses. So Scott, let's hop right in.
Scott Miller 0:35
Alright, Scott, so tell us one thing about yourself that most people don't know. I'm a stutterer. I have a pretty pronounced stutter. I was in speech pathology for a decade back in elementary middle school. I've had braces twice. There are 26 words that I literally cannot say in public. And when it's wintertime, I rarely speak outside in the cold because it exacerbates my stutter. And everyone
really hard to build a vocabulary that replaces words that I know I can't say it's been difficult, but I've met the challenge that I'm trying to conquer it, especially as a public speaker. I have a couple of podcasts and I have a radio program. And it's been a tough challenge for me, but I'm moving on conquering it. Yeah. Which is pretty incredible that you had decided to make a career in that one. That's a problem. Tell me about it. I do not speak outside in the winter. So if you ski with me, and the snow is gonna be a pretty silent day with me. Good friend. And I'll be stuttering most of the time.
Josh Tapp 1:35
No business deals in the snow for your
Scott Miller 1:36
business deals in the wintertime. Yeah,
Josh Tapp 1:38
I do have to tell ya, you're gonna hear me stutter quite a few times in this and I don't have one unless I'm on on the mic. So this is a good learning experience for me.
Scott Miller 1:46
Yeah, it's really easy. For a lot of us. It's psychological. For some it's neurological. For some, it's physiological. Everybody kind of has some different challenges. And I have found that when I talk about it actually makes me quite endearing, endearing to people that have either struggled with that or Some similar, you know, tick or issue or social anxiety, whatever it is, and, you know, everyone's got an S, everyone's got something some challenge. And the more you feel comfortable I think admitting it, the more your vulnerability acts as a relatable connection to people.
Unknown Speaker 2:17
Yeah, absolutely. Why not everybody?
Scott Miller 2:19
Yeah, I know some people, some people will weaponize it against you. And don't be naive about that. I bet those people I can tell you their names. But the vast majority of people I think appreciate just owning your mess.
Josh Tapp 2:31
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. One I'd like you're saying no, I mean, some people will take that but and then use as ammunition against you but it's all about being polar, right? It not everybody's gonna love you. And the people who will will pay you and want to be around you and every Yeah, so I love that.
Scott Miller 2:47
Well pay me more. Yeah. Anything like that.
Unknown Speaker 2:51
You have a podcast. Come on.
Josh Tapp 2:53
I love that. Well, let's let's hop right into this kind of getting some background on you. So give us a little bit of background how you got where you're at. Then, yeah, go from there.
Scott Miller 3:01
Well, so I was born in Orlando, Florida, small suburb back in the late 60s makes me old. I'm 51. And I went to school in college in Central Florida. I joined the Walt Disney Company when I was 23. And I just spent two years on a national presidential campaign back in 1888. That candidate won. And they went to the White House and I chose not to go I stayed at home, finish my degree, and went to work for Disney for four years and amazing ride. After four years, Disney the Disney Company invited me to leave. That's a nice way of saying they kicked me out. Because I was a jerk. And I was arrogant and not very mature and low EQ and all those things that most of us get fired for. Right. And would you believe that the Franklin Covey company came calling, they actually had their eye on me, and one of the vice presidents liked me a lot and thought he could fix me, and in many ways he did. And so I was a single Catholic boy living in Orlando moving out to Provo, Utah. Do the math. Yeah, that is a recipe for disaster, right? It's like a Jew moving to Vatican City, right? I mean, good for a weekend but not longer than that. So it was an amazing ride of massive cultural difference. I kind of had two steps forward one step back career, my whole life, became a leader of people early on, which was probably not wise. In retrospect, on any front, but I'm not sure I ever really should have been a leader of people. I was a really solid individual producer. I was kind of forced fit into it. I, I met the profile right bold, confident, overconfident, arrogant, loud, charismatic, and none of these talents are really correlated to be a great leader of people. So I was constantly being relieved unpromoted from my early leadership roles, and I'd say I've learned and I wrote the book management mess. Leadership success based on the premise that not everybody should be a leader of people. Right now, everybody has leadership within them right leader project, lead an initiative. But not everybody should be a leader of people because the talents that make you a great individual producer are often the opposite of what makes you a great leader. So I've been very blessed and privileged to be in this amazing organization, Franklin Covey for 23 years, I worked my way up to be a general manager. I was the company's first and only ever Chief Marketing Officer, reporting to the CEO. I'm a member of the executive team. And recently I've written two books, both of which are now bestsellers. Management mess was a number one new release for six weeks on Amazon. Wow. And just last week, I co authored a book called everyone deserves a great manager with our chief people officer and another colleague, and that book debuted at number three on the wall street journalists. So my wife says this writing is sticky thing has to work out because all my books are full of my own. says, I don't ever get hired again. So I hope it works out.
Josh Tapp 6:03
It's throwing all the mud on the wall.
Scott Miller 6:05
It totally is my friend.
I'm 50 and you know, you either like me or you don't I'm not changing. I'm hopefully improving, right, hopefully improving and maturing. But you know, you're kind of you are who you are. And with a lot of counsel and advice you improve, but you fundamentally don't change who you are. Maybe nor should you.
Josh Tapp 6:24
Yeah, I would say I completely agree with that.
Scott Miller 6:26
Unless you're like a narcissist or a sociopath. And then you need more than a podcast. Right? Right.
Josh Tapp 6:31
Yeah, it's in therapy. therapy. Well, so let's let's talk a lot about I want to delve into your books kind of the direction you've been going with leadership. Sure. Quite a few questions for you along those lines. So So tell us a little bit why you wrote the book management mess your ship success? Yeah,
Scott Miller 6:47
I'm glad you asked. I know there are, gosh over 6000 books written on management and leadership. Right You did you think the world needed one more leadership book? Well, apparently they needed one final 100 A year come out, right? Oh, yeah. And I spent my entire career in this leadership management industry. And what I found is including some of Franklin Covey's, which are enormous bestsellers, and they changed my life is that often, they're too academic. They're a little bit too aspirational. They're written by professors, or CEOs and people I couldn't relate to, or they just weren't very practical, or relatable, or actionable. So I decided I want to write a book, I was going to lay out all my own messes nothing illegal or immoral or, you know, unethical, close sometimes, but not really. And I found that I just wanted to be a bit of a light and a guide to those who don't resonate with the kind of everything ends up nicely wrapped up in a bow kind of leadership. And you know, it's proven to be true. The book sold 20,000 copies in 100 days. Wow. If you know much about books, 5000 copies in a year. It's like a home run. Yeah, the books do extremely well. I think it's because it hit a sweet spot and hit a sweet spot for this idea that we've all got messes. Every one of us, everyone knows them. Everyone's talking about your messes, your team's talking about them, your boss knows them. So why not just own them own up to them doesn't give you license to behave badly or wallow in your messes. But if you as a leader can be vulnerable, confident enough to talk about your own messes, then you create a culture where it's safe for others to admit their fears and their concerns. And then you can all move to success together. And I think that formula has been very powerful. That is so powerful. Can I tell you, the publisher has requested I write seven more books in the master Success Series. So right now I'm writing a book called marketing mess to brand success. That'll be the second book in the series. The third one will be job mess to career success. The fourth one will be parenting mess. To launch success. There'll be one on sales committee indication and I'm very excited about the future of the whole mess to success brand.
Josh Tapp 9:04
Yeah, well, that'll become your your name right. You're gonna really miss it.
Scott Miller 9:08
Yeah, seven more times. Oh, deal? Well, I'm sure.
Josh Tapp 9:16
So you've been able to get a lot of deals off that one book. So what what was the kind of the secret to success and launching that book? I mean, do you? I mean, you had a publisher, I assume?
Scott Miller 9:24
Oh, of course. Yeah. And how long do you have? No, I had some advantage. I've been writing a blog on LinkedIn for a year and a half. I'm a weekly contributor to ink magazine. I write a lot of articles for different publications. I've been writing as a chief marketing officer for you know, 10 years press releases. So I've honed my writing style. I had some help me I wrote the book, but I had someone who helped me and I write about that in the book. Yeah, I chose to, to have it published by a traditional publisher, but I have several publishing houses that are representing me, but I'll take you into the day. I am. I'm not afraid of knowing. No doesn't scare me. Failure doesn't scare me. Most people talk about how their book was rejected by X number of publishers look at Harry Potter. Right? I mean her book. And so I mean, you hear that, although all along. And so I chose to get a lot of help in making sure my book was solid and needs lots of improvements. When you read your book on audiotape, you can't believe that the book was released because you find so many errors and so many things. You're embarrassed about you want to rewrite. And then you realize there's eight more thousand copies in inventories, isn't it like five more months so you can redeem yourself? But writing a book is not launching a book, right? I guess some advice to people, you know, if you think your publisher is going to launch your book, you're wrong. Your publisher is going to print your book and distribute your book. That's not launching your book. You got to build your social media, LinkedIn, Twitter, Pinterest, Instagram, YouTube everywhere. You got to build a reason for people to like you and find your voice interesting. You're going to build, you know, I emailed and sent postcards to every high school friend, le college from every high school enemy, every college enemy, every every relative. Everyone in my church, everyone at my my country club at my kids school, I'm so overexposed. And my friend group, they're all dropping me like frogs like flies. Every book counted right. And before you notice the tipping point, I did 50 podcasts, I did 70 radio interviews, how I would have dropped brochures from a helicopter had I not been without environmental conscience. But authors need to know that writing a book is about one 10th of the book process, right? Once you've written a book, you're like, on that, you know, 50 yard line, you're, you know, you're barely halfway there. Right? That's really more than you wanted.
Josh Tapp 11:46
But I think that's nice. No, I completely agree with you. Because I think a lot of people, you know, they go to launch their book, and they're all excited because they've got them printed. They put it on Amazon and nobody buys. Why is everybody buying?
Scott Miller 11:57
Yeah, can I take it one step further. Absolutely. A friend a few weeks ago, has written a beautiful memoir that I think will be published here in the coming years. And, you know, she's got deep pockets. She's worked hard, been successful. And she talked about launching your book and I said, Well, hey, I'm happy to link you up with some publishers and editors. That's my business. Right? I said, the first question they're gonna ask you is what is your social media? And I said, How many connections Do you had have on LinkedIn? And she was proud. She said, 700 I said, you mean 700,000? She said, No. 700. I said, that's like none. Right? I said, you know, it takes you three or four years to build your social media imprint. Now, like some frauds, you can go by 700,000 by 7 million. And then people will wonder, well, with 700,000 followers, why do you have only six likes and four comments? Yeah, I mean, it's one thing to fake your social media. It's another to build it and earn over time by adding value to people's lives. So they pay attention to you by writing every day by posting in sights and value add, you create engagement. So the first tip to launching a book is not writing a book. I think it's building people who find you interested. And interesting, but
Josh Tapp 13:14
absolutely want to support your point I think a lot of the problem people have is they write a book and say who wants my book? Yeah, it's instead you should be building an audience figuring out what they want. And then you write the book that they want you to write. Yeah. Then they'll promote it for you. Right?
Scott Miller 13:30
Yeah. Well, it's exactly right. Rachel Hollis, you know, she wrote the book, girl wash your face. She discovered my book on a podcast, read it, loved it and invited me down to meet her group. I taught management master Rachel Hollis mean girl wash her face. Her book sold 4 million copies last week. She was on Good Morning America this morning. And she fell in love with my book. And, you know, my social is growing because of her endorsement. And her podcast with me hasn't even aired yet. So you get a couple of people that have been invited. Virtual base, and they like your work. And then you want to give back right? Yes. As you grow some own influence. I have people coming out of the woodwork wanting me to endorse their books. I'm like, Well, I gotta read it first, right? Because my brand is important and people who are following me trust me to you know, not waste their time. So if you want me to endorse your book I got I read it so sent to me way before lunchtime, because I have to take the time to, to read it and be authentic or say, I'm sorry, I can't do this. Not because it's not good. It's just not within my you know, my wheelhouse.
Josh Tapp 14:30
Yeah, when I mean, for somebody like you who already kind of has that, um, I guess standing you've already been able to get your social out there. We kind of know what you stand for. It's pretty easy to endorse something for you. But the hard part when when other people are starting up something new and they come to you with the book, you're like, well, who are you you know, like, you know, I'm not gonna call my people something. That's
Scott Miller 14:49
true. That's when I was that person. Not so long ago, right. I know. Rachel Hollis. Let me tell you, I hope to have my influence grow over the coming years with with my readers and followers like that. But you know what I have been the beneficiary of so many people lifting me up and going out on the limb. I mean Seth Godin, right is a good friend of mine. he endorsed management mess, Dan pink, doesn't get any bigger than Dan pink and Seth Godin, Liz Wiseman. Right. Right. multipliers Karen Dillon is the former editor of the Harvard Business Review. These are friends of mine, that took a risk right and endorsed my book. And I'm so grateful to them. So as we all kind of give back to the next person kind of coming up behind us. It's, it's a privilege to be approached by people.
Josh Tapp 15:32
Yeah, absolutely. Well, so what would you say? I mean, we're kind of going a little bit away from the leadership side of things. But that's kind of why I brought you on here. I wanted to see kind of your perspective of the way that you've been applying this leadership and how you've been able to teach yourself and this is going kind of further back in the conversation, but we were talking about, you know, sometimes the best managers aren't, weren't the best performers, right? Or vice versa, right? performers don't always become right. So So, a little bit further, why do you think that is?
Scott Miller 16:02
I think a couple of reasons. I think in most organizations, the next leader is promoted because they weren't, quote the best individual producer. They were the most effective dental hygienist or the most creative digital designer, or perhaps they were the top salesperson. And so a position comes open, and you promote, you know, who was the best digital designer, or the best salesperson. The problem is those skills that make you the best individual producer rarely translate into being the best leader. In fact, they're usually inversely correlated. They're the opposite skills. Think about a salesperson, the best salesperson is often highly competitive. They want to be top of the scoreboard. They want to win all costs. They love their name and lights. They like the significance. These are great skills, and your top salesperson. These are horrible skills, and a sales leader and sales leader needs to be humble. A great listener, they need to, you know, build capacity to other people. They need to take validation and seeing other people surpass them, not just in skill, but often in compensation. If a sales leaders doing their job well, her people are making more than she is. So the problem is we promote people based on the wrong capabilities. And they often think that people are lowered into leadership, not lead, right, bring them in, and they had no idea that they that it wasn't just about more money in a better title. Oh my gosh, I gotta have high courage conversations, I gotta fire people. I got to interview I got to coach, I got to be patient. I got a model what I want to see in people. And what happens is a lot of people fizzle out and leadership because they hate it. They're sick to their stomach, and therefore they don't rise to the occasion of what's really required from a leader. So I think that's the main cause of poor leadership is that either we don't train people, or more importantly, we don't sit them down and say, you know, You're a great salesperson, I'm going to write out the nine things that I think you do really well. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. You know what eight of these things are actually not going to serve you well as a leader. And I need you to stop doing them tomorrow. And here's a new and different behaviors that you just start doing. Now you're going to learn them, they won't come overnight. But let's talk about diplomacy and listening and having high courage conversations and talking straight and being empathetic. And you know, humility, right? These are all characteristics that don't always correlate on the front side of leadership and people implode, and then what they do, they don't step back to be a salesperson again, they leave. Yeah. And now you've lost your best salesperson, and you've lost your new sales leader, and everybody is worse off. So I think without blaming anybody, there's no blame to go around. And just to kind of raise the consciousness of what is your leadership identification process? Have you really clarified upfront? This is what it's going to be like, here's the day in the life of a leader. These are the types of conversations and behaviors, you're going to have to learn. Is this right for you? Is this what's going to provide joy for you? Are you going to build passion around this and give people a chance to say, You know what? No, thank you. Because there's no shame in not stepping up, right? I mean, the backbone of every organization is kick ass individual producers paying all the rest of our salaries. Right. I mean, that is, that's the linchpin of the revenue cycle for any company. Mm hmm.
Josh Tapp 19:35
When to kind of change the context on it a little bit. You know, we're a lot of our listeners have already they're kind of newer millionaires or newer six figure earners. And so a lot of these people are those performers. Right. They're the salespeople, they've been able to drive amazing results for their companies. Yeah, at what point should they be saying, maybe I shouldn't be leaving my company, you know, because at that point, you're hiring people.
Scott Miller 19:55
Yeah. superbe question insight. I think most entrepreneurs upstart owners are probably like me, they're high energy. They're very probably charismatic. They're very persuasive. They have strong influence skills. They have unbridled energy. They have, by necessity, unparalleled focus and dedication, and creativity. And those are great skills that will help you launch a company. They're not always great skills to attract or retain great talent. So as you scale your organization, as a leader, you need to be mindful of a couple things. Your job is not to be the smartest person in the room. Right? Your job is not to be the genius, but to be the genius maker of others that comes from Liz Wiseman, who wrote I think, what is the best leadership book in the business multipliers. It is a must read leadership book for all your listeners, multipliers, or whole concept really helped me to understand that as a leader, do most of my career I hired smart people, but hire people who are thought were not smarter than me. Because my whole value came from kind of being the smartest person in the room. Right? humiliating, right? First of all, how wrong but how humiliating my job was to attract to retain great talent, people who were better than me at all their skills and then keep them there. So I think with founders and entrepreneurs, you got to constantly be asking yourself, Am I nimble enough? Am I flexible enough? Am I mature enough? self aware enough? What am I blind spots? You know, should I not be the CEO? Maybe I should be the chairman. Maybe I should be the owner, and chief sales leader or chief revenue officer or whatever that is, right. You don't have to be running the company, you can still keep your mission alive and ultimately responsible. But maybe there's a point for you to step not aside, but to step in the right role. I think that's where a lot of leaders get hooked up is because now they find themselves being an operator. And they're doing things like hiring and firing and taxes. That kind of stuff when their key job, their key talent was being the Rainmaker or the deal maker, right or whatever it was. So it takes some humility. Yeah, admit that your ideas aren't always the best ideas even though you own the payroll. You own you know, you own the results of the company. It does take some time to recognize what got me here may not be the skills that take us there.
Josh Tapp 22:25
Yeah. When I mean like you're saying though, I think a lot of people just get hung up on Well, I want to be the CEO. I just want the title doesn't even matter what the role is. They just want the title right. Yeah, that's funny being a professional Rainmaker, the dancing monkey, right. I mean, if you got to that point, you were that person why step out of that role? You're not
Scott Miller 22:42
gonna Yeah, you can still be the CEO. Yeah. And hire hire yourself a president right and runs operations or does the hiring or firing because I don't know that because you are a successful entrepreneur, which you know, held to you, right, any meeting a payroll and turning something out of nothing. I mean, maybe something out of nothing is the backbone of this world. Nothing happens. So someone sells something. That doesn't mean that your talent is holding staff meetings, having high courage conversations, profiling the right employee for you know, sales, don't try to be all things to all people. In fact, the less you try to do that, and the more you quadruple down on your skills and hire people to run parts of the company, you can scale faster than you ever could, if you are micromanaging and holding it all so tight now says easy, does hard, right? Because it's your baby. It's your legacy. It's your mission. It's your passion. It's paying your mortgage, only you know what the p&l looks like? And so you got to be really self aware and know what your blind spots are. And to be humble, say your team down and say, You know what, guys, ladies, I'm really struggling. I want to give more up. And I want to really talk about what everybody's passions are here because I I'd like to delegate more. But I'm fearful because you know what I put my whole life on the line for this right? I mean, I mortgaged my house or, you know, my spouse's, you know, cash out or 401k. So, so pre forgive me if I seem a bit stressed and micromanaging at times, but I want to be able to trust everyone more. Let's talk about who should own what, that's a legitimate conversation to have.
Josh Tapp 24:24
Yeah, well, so how do you determine kind of those roles for people? I mean, is it just based off of skill or? Yeah, more yoky based?
Scott Miller 24:31
Yeah, I think it's both Right. I mean, you tend to hire on on technical skills to the fire on character, because everybody is faking it during an interview. You are and so are they? Yeah, one of the questions I always ask in the interview is two questions I ask. I'd like you to think of the person who just likes you the most in life. And if they struggle with that they're out. I'm looking for self awareness. Yeah. The next part of that question is tell me what they think about And depending upon how free they are, I know that they're self aware. And the next question I ask is, you're going to do something in three weeks, that's really gonna piss somebody off around here. I want to know right now what it's going to be because it's okay. You know, I piss people off, but I want to get a glimpse for your personality so that I can kind of, you know, help you manage through that right? Are you in the right team is the right task to talent, so the more you can seek, what's behind the veneer is very helpful. I also interviewed Patti McCord recently, she's the former chief talent officer at Netflix, an amazing woman. She no she like, was one of the chief leaders at Netflix and she said one of their goals at Netflix, as hard to say that with a straight face. One of their criteria for working there is they only hire fully formed adults. Now, they recognize that nobody is a fully formed adult, everyone's on a journey. But I tell you, the quickest way to wreck your culture is to hire jackass, hire someone who can't collaborate, who can't build relationships, who isn't trustworthy, who can't communicate, who can't apologize, who can't say they're wrong, who can't give credit to somebody else. Those are the types of things you're looking for in an interview, because at the end of the day, your copyright, your patent, your supply chain, your tagline, your board of directors, all that can be stolen, all that can be copied. It is not your unique value proposition. And beyond that, I'll tell you, your people are also not your most valuable asset. That's bunk. What is your ultimate competitive advantage? Listen carefully. Are the relationships between your people because if Jim is genius, and Steve is genius, but they can't get along, they can't work together. They can't forgive each other. They can't pre forgive each other. Then doesn't matter. Right? Is the relationships between the people that is every organizations and replicable chief competitive asset? Wow.
Josh Tapp 27:09
Yeah, that's a paradigm shift for most of us. Right? Yeah. Because it's not about the boss
Scott Miller 27:13
needs to be humble, right? The boss needs to be the model. You have to not be impulsive. You can't be a jerk. You can't be impetuous. You can't be judgmental, you can't be a gossiper. You can't pass the buck, you have to acknowledge that you made a mistake. You have to be able to say, You know what? That idea that I sunk up three weeks ago? Well, that was total lunacy. Let's stop doing that right now, who's got a better idea, right? Or have the courage to say thank you for those great ideas. We're not going to go chase a bunch of cats. We're going to double down on this for three more weeks. I need everybody to give it their all. And all of us come to the plate me included and be transparent around what's working and what's not working. That's the kind of boss that everybody wants to work for.
Josh Tapp 27:56
Right? Because they're not saying it's about my my success. It's about that. The company's success be
Scott Miller 28:01
successful, right? If your idea is better than my idea, the must run with that being careful that you don't want to be the leader that just agrees with the last idea you heard, right? Because, you know, stand for something or fall for everything.
Josh Tapp 28:14
Yeah. Well, if you're a yes, man, you're never going to see the results. So we had some dogs barking in the background, but that's okay. So, you know, we're talking a lot about how to develop that good, that strong team and everything and you're talking about some of the questions that you said when you when you hire people. So how what's your process along finding those right people? And yeah, a lot of people have stopped. So just to give some context to the question, I think it was Google, Microsoft, IBM, a bunch these companies said they're no longer going to be hiring based on the degree of the person but more on the the actual skills that they have, you know, they applicable knowledge that they have. So now let's go into that a little bit.
Scott Miller 28:52
Yeah. So I'd say I've never been on the front end of the recruiting process. We have a recruiter. We have five recruiters that work for our Franklin Covey binder. Very much been involved in hundreds of interviews and hundreds of hires. And I'll tell you, I've never fired someone on lack of technical expertise. Every termination is from inability to get along with others, or a complete lack of self awareness. So what I do in the interview process is I make it super casual, super comfortable, like unusually comfortable. And my bike under my feet up on the table, or, you know, I'll make as I want to lower the barrier, I want to make them feel really, really comfortable. So I see the real person, because I don't want one of these formal interviews where everybody's sitting around, everyone's on their best behavior, all their rehearsed answers. No, I want to make it shockingly comfortable. Because that's when the real person comes out, and they let down their guard. I can really get a glimpse into what is the real person like as everybody can behave for 90 minutes, even? Even me so My best interview characteristic is not some psychological profile or some great interview questions. It's just to really kind of see into their soul and really try to figure out what are they really like? Because we've all got messes right? I can be a jerk. I can be petty, I can be jealous. I can be anxious. I can be insulting sometimes, hopefully, less than 10 years ago. But it's true, right? None of us are as clean cut, intelligent. Well put together punctual as we think we are. We all got messes. So during that interview process, I really want to understand, you know, what types of people ignore you? You find yourself apologizing to someone? What happened? What do you love doing? What do you hate doing? What's your What are your passions in life? What kind of music do you listen to? Right? I mean, you know, tell me about you. I know there's some questions. You can't ask an interview because they're not legal and I don't ever go there. Right. But I want I want people To feel comfortable, because you know what you may want this job, you might be laid in your rent. But if I hire you, and it's the wrong job, the pain that you're going to cause the pain that you're going to endure is far greater than being late on your rent. You do not want to come in here for six weeks, and then had me tell you, you have to leave. That's humiliating, is that your resume? It's bad for me. It's bad for you. Let's get it right. Right. You have to work. You don't have to work here. Right. In every culture is, you know, I think it's number one number one question that candidates are asking Now, what's it like to work here? It's a great question. Because, you know, it's a buyers market, you know, unemployment, three and a half percent right, or whatever it is, and every company is desperate to hire, but they're not so desperate to hire someone who's a train wreck, who's not going to work in their culture.
Josh Tapp 31:50
Yeah, absolutely. Well, so on a different note with that, I mean, a lot of these people that are listening to this, you know, they're either solopreneurs or looking to start businesses. mean people like that? Do you find people should be doing this sort of process when they when they're finding a partner? Like a partner for their business?
Scott Miller 32:08
Wow. Well, you know, absolutely. I mean, when you enter a partnership, it's probably the second most important decision in your life next to who you marry. Yeah, because who you marry is derived all your pleasure and all your pain. Mm hmm. And your partner is probably the second most important soul crusher in your life. What is their credit score? Yeah, many times have they been arrested? driving on a suspended license, not a problem beating their girlfriend. major problem, right, right. You want to know their bankruptcies? You want to know their credit score and they should know yours? Right? None of that disqualifies you, but you should be able to say what are your insecurities? What is your community style. Are you a morning person or night person? You know what? How much vacation time do you want to take? There's no wrong answer. It says it needs to match mine or complement mine. I think you've got to be just uncharacteristically vulnerable. Share all your fears. Share the things you like to do share the things you hate doing. Don't put on your on your on your best face. Right. There are some partnerships that have endured divorces and endured, you know, drug rehabilitation right, endeared obsessions, I mean, you know, all kinds of things right? And the more you can be honest, I mean, and they take it a step further. To get us to question I want to know everything about you. And no judgment. I don't care if you're gay or straight. I don't care if you like tequila, or I don't care if you know, you take a Percocet once in a while. I need to know though, because I need to know what's going on because I gotta be able to trust you. Now, I don't mean to be glib or funny with that. But I mean, I don't want to I don't want to find out five weeks from now that you're taking five lortab a day. That's not good. Work, that's gonna wreck my family too, right? So I say that to be not funny but transparent. You ask the question I'm very passionate about that your partner
Josh Tapp 34:10
can crush you. And you can crush them. If you're putting on a best face. When I think that's part of the problem when you deal with family event, family partnerships, my first business was with my brother. And I love him to death and we work really well together. But there were certain things about that partnership that just weren't going to work. But because we're family, you're overlooking these things that could potentially be huge issues for for a business
Scott Miller 34:34
unit. Great. I think a great entree to that is is to say businesses business and pleasure and pleasure. And we're at this table or we're on that sofa, or we're at Arby's once a week. Nothing is off limits and by the way, no one can be punished for anything said at that booth at Arby's or wherever it is. You have your weekly, you know, some people call to come to Jesus meeting, no disrespect me, you know, minute by minute. What says that That table, you cannot hold against me. But you know you have a safe setting where it everything that is said is about the business and then you leave you go have a drink together. I think setting good guidelines is crucial for not holding back. You can scream at your brother and say how dare you take the petty cash fund? And then this afternoon, go have Thanksgiving dinner. Great. Business is business. Personal is personal.
Josh Tapp 35:28
When that differentiation can be really hard when that's family I think a lot of
Scott Miller 35:32
course Yeah, think twice. Yeah. I have said I've used to word petty cash fund lortab and Percocet in the last three minutes. I guess. I'm a little outrageous. But you know what? These are real life issues, right? I don't sugarcoat it. These are real life issues. Yeah. Where's the foreigner bucks and petty cash. Yeah, and you fill out the form. There's a form, fill it out if you need it, but you got to fill the form out whether you're my brother or not. I don't care why you used it. That's your business.
Josh Tapp 35:57
Yeah, I better be back there by next Friday. Or if it's not You gotta explain it to me. Yeah, the rules. What I love that I really think, you know, all of these relationships we've been talking about are so crucial to the success of the company and honestly to your own individual success. So for you on just one final note with this, we've been talking about, you know, the management mess to leadership success. How does that work within a family?
Scott Miller 36:23
Wow, I think it's 100% applicable in a family. You know, I give children
Josh Tapp 36:28
I do not but I am married.
Scott Miller 36:30
You are right, three boys. five, seven and nine made three boys in five years. It was crushing to our marriage. We survived it we're surviving it's not easy. You're I swear children's goal in life is to destroy your marriage from finances, your time your love, everything. But I mean, every family's a mess. I mean, I I'm actually pitching a reality poker right now for television on going into offices and companies and turning, you know, kind of bad bosses into good bosses. I was one you The whole premise of the program, it starts at home. It's a mess around here. I mean, I've got a beautiful home. We have a decorator and someone comes and cleans at once a week, but it's panda. effin Moni. I'm here. He's flying every day. And I think the more you can acknowledge it, right, we all put on our friends we put on you know, he, we look good on Sunday morning at church, right, right. Beyond that. Most people if you heard me in the car on the way to church, you'd wonder why was I going to church? Right, right. But man, it's just a fact of life. Every family's got messes. Everybody's got a kid who's vaping everybody's got it in law that's moving into dementia. Everyone's got a bill they can't pay. Everyone's got fears and challenges. It's very natural. Most of us are trying to survive, right and some of us are thriving. None of our families look as good or are as good as they look on Facebook, including including mine. And so I think a lot of these challenges that read about in the book, you Listening first, having high courage conversations being transparent, declaring your intent. Having a one on one meeting, having a family meeting and talking about the budget, right and what we can and can't afford the type of values that we're raising in our family. I do apologize all the time, because occasionally the F bomb will slip out of my mouth. That ain't good when you're raising boys because they know exactly what it means and now license to do the same, especially when you stubbed your toe at dinner. And you've you know, had a rough day at work. And so, they're all applicable because you're leading in your home. You know, leaders can do a lot of damage, or a lot of good to your people in your business. And parents can do a lot of damage and a lot of good to our kids and to our spouses. Be kind, be forgiving. be less judgmental. admit your own mistakes. And remember your kids are watching everything you do.
Josh Tapp 38:55
And listening when you're
Unknown Speaker 38:56
Josh Tapp 38:58
That's right. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for that last parting piece of guidance for us. So, before we sign off, though, where can people find your book? How can we get our hands on it?
Scott Miller 39:07
According to my wife, where Can't they shootings I'm way overexposed. So all the books are on Amazon Barnes and Noble books, a million book pal everywhere you can buy books. The first book is management mess, to leadership success. The second book is everyone deserves a great manager. They're everywhere. You can follow me on LinkedIn, I'd be honored if you follow me on LinkedIn on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, you can visit management mess calm. You also can visit the world's longest web domain, which is everyone deserves a great manager.com find me there I write a column for ink magazine. You also can find me at Franklin Covey calm as I still serve on the executive team and follow my podcast on leadership there as well.
Josh Tapp 39:51
Well, I'm gonna put links to all of that description of the podcast. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Scott Miller 39:58
My honor.
Josh Tapp 40:00
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