Josh Tapp 0:00
What's up everybody? Josh Tapp here again and welcome back to the lucky Titan podcast. So today we have Sheila Davis on the mic. Sheila is a podcaster, a speaker and also the founder of the yes woman's network. Sheila is on a journey to flip 100 businesses in 2020. So she let's hop right in. Right Sheila tell us one thing about yourself that most people don't know.
Sheila Davis 0:22
Well, outside of being born in Mayberry, North Carolina, which a lot of people aren't familiar with is actually a town called Mount Airy. And as a runner in high school, I actually had a full ride scholarship to Weber State coming out of my junior year for track. It's pretty
Josh Tapp 0:36
cool. See ya, then you ended up being an entrepreneur? You don't really funny about that is most most entrepreneurs have a sports background I found really, really interesting. I think you learn a lot of competition in there.
Sheila Davis 0:49
You know, resilience competition. Yeah, definitely. Entrepreneurs are definitely competitive. No question.
Josh Tapp 0:55
Yeah. We can both attest to that one, right? Yes. Well, she Let's be a little bit of back On you kind of where you came from and how you got into where you're at now, I mean, how you're helping so many companies now and I'd like to see how you got there.
Sheila Davis 1:07
Sure. So, in 2011 ish around there, my daughters got really sick. My two youngest daughters and I, I called I emailed my boss who was on vacation in Florida at the time, and I said, I can't come in to work with my own computer driving to work sitting at the conference table like I was doing, I'm going to be working from home. And he literally said to me, that's not acceptable. When will you be in? And I'm like, well, it's not acceptable to not stay home with my children who I have a letter from the doctor. It wasn't like I was faking anything. I had a letter from the Doctor h1 and one you remember that whole big breakout thing? Yeah. And so I stayed home and I worked for a full two weeks while they recovered and didn't skip a beat. Matter of fact, the the real estate agents, I was working for 65 of them up in Park City. None of them even know I didn't can't come in and so I was apologizing. I'm like, I'm sorry. wasn't in there like you weren't in I didn't even notice, because I got my work done. But also during that time, I did some research and I said, you know, this is ridiculous. I can work from anywhere. How does this How does it How can this work? Is this possible to work from home? And I learned about the virtual assistant community. And so I started my own virtual assistant business basically started my own job, because I didn't understand the difference between working for myself and working for someone else. Very quickly. Within a year, I found that finding clients was very easy for me. And a lot of the other virtual assistants in the world are like you came out of nowhere and you're full of clients, and you're looking for people to take those clients. How are you doing that? And so I thought, Well, sure, I'll be a coach. Everybody in their dog can be a coach just put the word coach after your name and you're a coach. Right? Right. I quickly realized within like a month I am not a coach, and not everybody should have that word coach on their name. And so I decided I wasn't a coach. So I just started a virtual assistant network where people When I found clients if I couldn't help them myself, I had this network of virtual assistants that just evolved and evolved and evolved. And I ended up just being a digital marketer, Speaker podcaster. And I found that every single year as I increased my knowledge, I increased my income. I increased my network, I increased my income. And so when I started my business, it definitely doesn't look like it does now. It looks like it should. Now as I grow, I'm always going to be improving and hopefully, that's what everybody else is doing to you have to become better, add more services change with the market, definitely marketing is changing. You know, when I first started, it was a five touch to sell. Now it's like 13 to 15 touch to sell, unless you have podcast By the way, there's a little tip for you put somebody in your ear, you don't have to touch them 13 times before they're gonna buy from you. Right. So podcasting smart sales funnel.
Josh Tapp 3:52
Love it. I'm glad because that's what we're doing right now. Well, it's such a really interesting story, the fact that you've you've been able to to evolve, you know, your business journey wasn't linear, right? That's what I love about your journey in particular, because a lot of people, you know, they just kind of went one direction and it started working for them, or they fought until it worked. But I feel like you did even better, right? You know, you said, Hey, coaching is not for me. And I have to throw in here because everybody who listens to our show knows this about me. He's like, I don't think you can be a coach until somebody comes to you and says, will you be my coach? I'll pay you for it. Right? Right. We work with quite a few people where I'm a coach, and I'm like, do you coach anybody? Well, no. But in your case, now, I really love that you decided to go kind of the virtual assistant route and now you've created a whole company around helping people to automate their company. Right. So let's talk a little bit about your process and how you help companies to turn themselves around.
Sheila Davis 4:47
Sure, so actually came about it by accident. And I would clients would call me for sales funnels. I do brand new websites and sales funnels. Those are my favorite things to do. And they would say I need a sales funnel for this event. For this download for this particular item I'm selling whatever it is, and I would start asking them questions so that I could build an appropriate sales funnel, I quickly realized that they would have tools they didn't know how to use things they didn't have the correct logins for, they had no idea where their branding information was, basically, I could build them a sales funnel till the cows come home, but it's not going to work unless their back end is working. So accidentally started adding those things in Well, I can do this for you. But first, we have to do this or it's not gonna work. And so that just kind of became a fluke thing. The very first client I did this for we saved her 1200 dollars a month. In the very first 10 minutes. We were talking, just by going over the list of tools that she had and how she was using them. We eliminated 1200 dollars a month going out the door. And so and we've had clients that have we've shifted the way that they do some of their marketing and increase sales by 650% on their websites by shifting branding. So you have to look at the big Picture, a lot of people think I need a sales funnel, I need a Facebook ad, I need this, that or the other. But the fact is that back end of business is where the real magic happens. It's a really fun place to be. And if you listen to entrepreneurs, a lot of them will say, my back end is messy. And if I had somebody to run my back end, I could be successful, because random back end takes a different part of your brain, it takes different skills. It's the how to run your business part. Entrepreneurs mostly need to stay in the Why am I doing what I'm doing? And what am I going to do next? So that's kind of the three pillars in my opinion of entrepreneurship is the Why Why did you get started? That's why we all open that first door and said, I want to work for myself. Then we start looking at the What am I going to offer? What am I going to do for people what services are they going to be looking for from me? What kind of change can affect in the world? Then you look at the hell, the struggle people find. When they start getting into this you'll feel this like tsunami effect. In your brain as you're trying to figure out how you're gonna make money, when you start filling that tsunami, what's happening to you is you're thinking about the how and the what the same time. Those are two different things. The cool thing about how is it can always be hired out. Right? The cool thing about the How is it's always the same for everybody. How do I plan an event? same steps, how do I build a sales funnel, same steps, it's the one that you're gonna put in there where the magic will be dumped into the part that will actually work the machine, the process the automation. And so that's where I like to kind of hang out, even though I'm kind of a bit of a public figure, and I'm, and I'm out there with my face and everything. I like the back end. And that's kind of where, you know, I like to help businesses really succeed, save money, save time, work smarter, not harder.
Josh Tapp 7:46
Well, and I love that you've decided on that areas of business because most people, you know, entrepreneurs, like you mentioned, you know, it's kind of a joke between all of us have, you know, we can be rainmakers, but it's just we're going to leave a trail of wreckage behind us, right?
Sheila Davis 8:00
Right. And when you get down there and you realize, yes, I'm making all this money, but you don't realize how much is going out that back door, you're not even aware of things that you've lost control of. And you hit that five year mark where Yeah, you've been making money you're doing really well. But because your back end is messy, you cannot move over that plateau, you can't move to that elusive next level everybody's looking for without fixing that you certainly cannot build a team unless you have that back end working properly.
Josh Tapp 8:28
Yeah. 100%. And I think a lot of us, you know, one of the problems that I'll even have in my own company, this is why I have a partner who he does the back end for us because I found that my problem is I almost can't stop for enough time to make it work by myself because I have to go through and analyze and everything but somebody like you, you know you we hire you you come in you fix everything for us or you're with us say hey, you don't have to think about this, think about this, right? That's I think the true value that somebody like you can bring to the table. You know, helping us in in You're really just making and refining that process at that on the back end for us. Because I know for myself, that's just, it's the headache. That's why I have a partner, Mike, hey, you can do that. I'll be the dancing monkey.
Sheila Davis 9:13
Totally. That's exactly right. It's hard. You can't it's really hard to do both you can. And you have to, you know, bootstrappers definitely have to do both for the very beginning, was soon it's kind of like this, the back end and the front end become this situation where I can't afford to hire anybody. But I can't grow unless I hire somebody, when you get in that window of time is when you have to make a decision, am I going to fail? Am I going to succeed? Are you happy with where you are? Or do you want to get bigger? And so the back end can become this black hole or the Bermuda Triangle a business? Because I mean, you can for me anyway because my OCD if I start working on my own website, which I hire out my own, my own website, little stuff, because I will just keep fixing and fixing and fixing and fixing and I'll never go back To the front end, or you get in this situation where you're working on the front end, you make money, then you go work on the back end, you're not making money, you get back to the front end, you end up with this huge roller coaster of income. If you want to have that steady stream of income, you need to stay in your wife and your wife and let somebody else take care of that house apart and just make it work for you. And you can go to somebody, for example, I went to a business meeting and the person I was supposed to meet did not show up. So I contacted my virtual assistant. I said, This guy didn't show up. Can you follow up with them? So as I'm waiting there for five minutes, she emailed him, texted him, called him, messaged him on Facebook, all these different things. While I was actually consulting with another person over the phone for five minutes. She was able to get that all set up, reschedule for me, and and I could just go on my way. So there's little tiny things. You think, Oh, it's gonna take five minutes. They'll just be really quick. You can do just five minutes of stuff for 10 hours and not have gotten anywhere.
Josh Tapp 10:58
Yeah. I think a lot of us get into that trap a lot because like, oh, I'll just knock it out. But yeah, it eats away your time. I was just talking with a guy the other day he was saying that on, he works in a corporate environment right at a fortune 500 company. And he said, he had over 2500 unopened emails. And they just kept burying him, right. And he said, I just, I kept getting worse and worse, because I wouldn't, I couldn't get to it. And so he on his own dime, hired somebody to to come and just take care of his emails for him. And, you know, that saved him how many hours and how much pain and the constant agony you're having all the time. I have 2500 emails to read, right? So that's really
Sheila Davis 11:41
people to put on hold. You know what I mean? So you know, in four hour workweek, that's actually the first thing that God talks about that he hired out with somebody else looking at my emails, Brendon Burchard, constantly talks about how email is not the first thing he does. It's the first thing a lot of us do, and we get up and that's the first thing we do when we sit down. We check it throughout the day. Brendon texted for 10 minutes of the day, at the end of the day, granted, I'm sure he has people who help him with that. But those are his 10 minutes. Also, we need to remember that the time that we allot for something is how long it's going to take. So we need to a lot time for those little things like checking email, you don't have to check 2500 in a day, check five to 10 minutes and you know, come back and do it. But definitely hiring out those things that don't make you money. lead person needs to be doing money making tasks every day.
Josh Tapp 12:29
Yeah. Well, and so this is where you get into a really interesting thing because I really like how you mentioned earlier, there's going to come up a pivot point for you, right, it's where you're, it's make or break, right. And I know every company goes through the same problems, we've done it ourselves. And it's it's saying okay, I have the what I have the why and I kind of have the how myself, but then they have to make that decision to to hire somebody out. So who do you recommend, or what do you recommend outsourcing first
Sheila Davis 13:00
So I recommend that things that number one aren't making you money. And number two, take too much of your time. And also, I really highly recommend that you write your processes down anybody who's brand spanking new, start now write all your processes down. If you are into it already, I would hire out actually getting your operations manual worked out. So I would hire someone to go look at your business and say, these are the things I'm doing, track those things, have somebody you know, do it on video. This is what I do. If I have a process, I need someone to learn. I record what I need them to do. So I realized, man, social media, for me is a nightmare. I hate social media. I do. I'm hardly ever on there maybe 15 minutes a day. So one of the first things I wanted to hire out with social media it doesn't doesn't make me any money on the you know, bottom line, any direct ROI, any direct ROI on a daily basis. Number two, it is a huge time suck. And number three, it's necessary. So I did a video I said this is how I like to work inside of the groups. This is how I like my voice to sound. This is how I like to respond to my messages. These are the ones that I want to respond to that, that just let me know when they're there. And then I sent that over to my VA, who then typed out the process. And I have a video for those who are visual, and I have it written for those who are, who are more verbal. And so I can hire that out and down to someone. I don't have to do anything. I need a new VA, somebody leaves I bring on somebody new. I say Here it is, there's a process. So the two things would be get your processes in place, and you might need to hire that out because you don't have time to go typing this. Oh my gosh, it's a nightmare to type that stuff out. But you have to have it. E myth, right. If you haven't read the E myth, go read a myth. It's how McDonald's came McDonald's. It is how they they run the whole industry. If you go to China, you're going to get the same type of McDonald's as if you go to, you know anywhere in the States because of their manuals of operation. So create your operational manual and hire out this stuff is taken up your time. It's not making you any money.
Josh Tapp 15:00
Yeah, when one of the questions that most people have when this is, you know, is Who do I hire? Because a lot of the time say, Oh, I could I could get an intern or I could get because a lot of those tasks that you're just like, any, anybody could do this right? So okay, I could just give this to hire somebody full time maybe pay 12 to $15 an hour and, you know, but what's what's the benefit to doing a virtual assistant instead of, you know, an executive assistant or somebody that you hire on?
Sheila Davis 15:25
Sure. So, the differences would be number one, a virtual assistant is not on your payroll. And you can control the number of hours that they work, you can kind of control the the scope of what they do if you have a full time employee, you know, your eight to five your insurance or the desk or the computer, your taxes, your all those things. So definitely 1099 is a smart way to go at the beginning especially really look at your business and decide if you want to get the 1099 route or the employee route. There's huge differences in those so talk with your tax person and your your legal counsel and decide You know which way you want to go there? For me personally, especially at the very beginning, hiring out a virtual assistant is going to be a huge key, not only a virtual assistant, but possibly an online business manager would be smart. And certainly web designers and branding people and social media, people who actually do Facebook ads and things like that. Those people are 1099 companies that you just hire out, you know, comes out of your bottom line right off right off the top
Unknown Speaker 16:26
Unknown Speaker 16:27
bottom or at the bottom, but anyway, so
Sheila Davis 16:29
those kind of things, but the main thing I would say is don't you can't just hire anybody. You really can't. I mean, you need to make sure they're they understand. So there's like a list of questions you should ask before you speak with them. Make sure you understand how they're billing you how you're paying them. There are some virtual assistants out there that you hire them. Maybe you pay for five hours for the month for the month, and then you give them 20 hours worth of work. Some of them will not come back to you and say I finished the five hours deep You want me to do more, they'll just bill you for 20 hours, right? And you need to keep an eye on that his biggest thing is communication, especially if they're not in the office with you. Communication with everything, ask them questions, make sure they're asking you questions, if you don't hear from them for a day, there's a problem, you need to be in touch with them. I mean, I'm in touch with my virtual assistants, on Marco Polo, and on text every day, several times a day. And so you need to have that line of communication open and make sure that you all are, are working toward the same goal.
Josh Tapp 17:31
Yeah, that's really good advice. And, and one of the things that a lot of people, you know, when you're, when you're hiring all these virtual assistants, you know, there's only so many places you can go to get them, you know, like freelancer.com, or Upwork, or what have you, but where, where do you typically find yours?
Sheila Davis 17:46
So because I was in the virtual assistant industry for so long, actually no thousands of them. And a lot of people actually come to me and say, Hey, I need a new virtual assistant that does this, this and this and this pretty recommend. So I don't use those platforms myself. I know people that do and they weren't great. Just make sure like I said, You're asking the right questions, that you understand everything about the contract that you're going to sign with them, how the building's going to work, and you make it clear what you expect from them as well. But for me, I just know a lot of them. One of the things I really like to do is every year I have about four virtual assistant interns, brand spanking new DBAs, who are just coming out of the chute. They're like, I want to start a business. I don't know what I want to do, and train them and trade for the work they do for me. So this last year, I started a podcast. And in doing that, I quickly realized that the back end of a podcast, which is funny, because my back my podcast is about the backend back into podcasting is hard. Yeah, I mean, this part that you and I are doing is the fun part. It's what you and I should be doing, but somebody else seems to be doing all the editing stuff. And so I hired for virtual assistant interns and I trained them to be podcast managers. Now they've all except for one have left me and their podcast managers and they have the skills they They have testimonial for me, they get referrals from me. I've gotten them a couple clients. So for me in terms work great. It doesn't cost me anything. It does take time. But they videotaped the process. They wrote it out. They followed it. They ask questions they learn. So in my opinion, that's a win win situation, when they can learn, and they can grow, and I can get the help that I need at the same time.
Josh Tapp 19:23
Yeah, I love that. One. I think a lot of people are running into that same problem, you know, is okay, who do I hire? Where do I go? So well pitch for you right now. Just go talk to Sheila?
Sheila Davis 19:34
Well, I think the main thing is just make sure you're asking the right questions. And I actually don't have on my website right now, but can put on pretty quickly my list of questions that you should ask your virtual assistant before hiring them, and you can test them too. And I do that actually, when I posted in the there's actually Facebook for virtual assistant Facebook job board groups. So you go in there and you post I'm looking for a VA who has these skills. Be very careful about That make it very clear whether you want them to message you whether you want them to email, you put it in a subject line, whether you want them to just leave a comment, you can very quickly read people out number one. So I made the post I said, messaged me. So anyone who messaged me, not left a comment, but then messaged me were moved up to the list. The next thing I did is please fill out this form, very simple form that cut the list by 75%. They weren't willing to fill out a very simple form, nailed that down. Then I narrowed it down a little bit more and I did some interviews and asked him very clear questions and make sure that that not only did they understand that the skills that I was wanting them to have even the interns I want them to have a certain level. My personality worked with them, right. We got along there were a couple people that had all everything I thought that they needed. But once we got on that interview, it was clear that our personalities just weren't going to work out. And so that narrowed it down and I got it down to like six and after the interview And then I just picked my top four. And it was hard, but you can weed them out very quickly. That way. But yeah, I didn't even think about that the Facebook job boards for virtual assistants is a great place to go. That's awesome.
Josh Tapp 21:13
And you just search to jump a virtual assistant job board for marketing or something.
Sheila Davis 21:18
Yep, virtual system job board and this got fat. And they're I mean, they're just they're hungry to get out there, that you can narrow it down real quick, but giving them simple tasks. I also by the way, anyone who has said no to, I offered them a free training, a free video training on how they could get clients and I know this training works because it's worked for thousands of virtual assistants in the past. It's exactly how I get clients. Five out of the hundred and 80 watch the video. So that I mean you can see how many there are out there that are hungry to make money. They're not willing to do one small little thing. You don't want them on your team.
Josh Tapp 21:54
Right? And that's hilarious. People are just so unwilling to even just do the small things.
Sheila Davis 22:00
I made $400 worth of training on how to get clients 45 minutes and they weren't willing to even do that video. It surprised me. It really did.
Josh Tapp 22:08
Yeah, you're blown away by that one. Well, geez, well, so Sheila, you know, we've gotten over a lot of different pieces about how to leverage those virtual assistants and everything. I really love your thoughts on that, and how how we can use them. I know for myself, and we've outsourced our sales process, we got to a point where it's just kind of cut and dry. wasn't very hard to do. But the problem is, I didn't have enough time to do it myself. So we hired some they weren't really VA as an agency to take it over for us. But we just pay them an hourly rate. And it works so well for us, because of my K, they're doing 10 times the amount of sales I could do. And I don't have to do any of the work. Right.
Unknown Speaker 22:44
Josh Tapp 22:45
I know. For me, that was one of those tedious tasks. So I think a lot of people to look in, especially our listeners to be thinking about and where you can put virtual assistants and what the power of that would be. But I want to shift the conversation here a little bit. So you Have the US Women's Network. So talk to us a little bit about what that is.
Sheila Davis 23:03
So yes, Women's Network is kind of my front brand. It's what is the platform I speak from? My ultimate goal and dream in life is actually to be a speaker, trainer, mentor to single women and military wives. If you ever go to an event or somewhere and they and you hear people talking about how they want to do some kind of service projects, you'll never hear them say, the single moms in the military wives.
Unknown Speaker 23:29
Sheila Davis 23:32
It's a really tender spot for me because I was a single mom for a long time. Basically, I've been a single mom for about 28 years, because of the marital situations I've been in. And I could have used help, but I'll tell you what, military wives single single women will never ask for it. So they need a resource, a place where they can go and find trusted resources, what they want to start a business or they need to make any kind of connection, some kind of networking that they can really Trust is a lot of people out there that are just not trustworthy. And so I wanted to create a place where they could come get training, I have a virtual assistant training course on theirs has 79 modules that take teaches you from scratch, to building your virtual assistant, we have a we have several instructors who have other courses, we've got some connections with some big businesses, I'm drawing a complete blank over the one that you can actually get access to novels and educational material as well through their platform that you can only get through us. And so I just wanted to be that place where women could go when they get in that situation. We're in our lap. Oh, crap, now what? And so my coach asked me what's the opposite of that? And I said, Well, yes. It's like you find your keys. You're like, yes, he said, that's the name of your network. And so that's kind of how we got our name. So if women find themselves in that, Oh crap, now what situation I want to be the person that can or the the place where they can come and look and find the resources they need to help whatever situation They're in and I have a nonprofit called, yes, empowering possibilities as well, where we would like to be able to offer funds to, to women just in general, but you know, single moms and military wives, especially at the beginning of the school year, who needs school clothes, who their kids come to them and say, I want to do track and they can't afford it. You know, to I have to move from, you know, my husband has been deployed from Germany back to the United States. Is there a group close by me Who can help me find a place to rent and you know, where do I go for childcare? And where do I go for this or that or the other? That's kind of what, what we want to be ultimately we would like to license the brand around the world and have small intimate groups around the world where people can reach out find trusted resource in their local areas especially.
Josh Tapp 25:52
And that is so incredible, and I really appreciate that you've decided to do that. It take your passion and blow it up, right Go Go more towards the impact instead of the money right? And I'm people will flock to you because of that. But what I really you know, I think for your, your, for the yes Women's Network and everything, it's not even just for women. I mean, you and I were talking about this this is a training that every person should be taking especially if you're just starting because the easiest way to start a business today is to be a virtual assistant first because it's on somebody else's dime that you're going to learn and then you're going to come out the other end you're having you're being paid a lot of people can be paid, you know, 40 $50 an hour as a virtual assistant. But then on top of that, you're going to get the skills to do your own business and that's what's really awesome because I know for myself how I learned to business was I started a marketing agency and we were just poor poor because of it for a while, you know, and then eventually started to grow and everything but it it was harder at first to get it to get paid. So I'm I just I definitely know that that's that's a direction that a lot of people should be using to to start a business. So where can people start? Just throw
Sheila Davis 27:00
this out there too a lot of people will come to me and say I want to be a health coach and while I'm being a health coach and building that making money I want to be a virtual assistant to make money to do that. Don't you can't split your attention starting as a virtual assistant to learn online business to learn tools to have access to things to learn process, this really smart idea that if you want to if your passion is somewhere else make sure that you don't divide your attention a lot of people are doing that where they have two different businesses are running so my friend brand yes on his network but I do all of my digital marketing and back end work through my Lock and load my digital marketing agency. So you make sure you're keeping your focus on one place and that's moving forward in the direction you want to go and remember that that's probably like like Josh said, not gonna be linear it's gonna be messy.
Josh Tapp 27:51
make a mess, have fun and make money right. Well, she everybody can go check that out the yes Women's Network comm right or is it dotnet calm. Yes. sir.com perfect. So yes, women's network.com so go check that out. And Sheila, before we sign off, though, could you give us one last parting piece of guidance? If this was the only thing that you could have people get out of this interview?
Sheila Davis 28:13
What would that be? So my last piece of advice can I give to so one would be making sure you're educating yourself make sure you're learning something new every day. It whether that's in your personal life or your business life, make sure you're learning number two would be that work life balance is going to be key to success in both of those areas. You have to be sure to, to when you're at home when you're with your children. Put your work aside and no when you work at home that is very hard. My office is in my bedroom. My kids like to congregate in my bedroom asleep in my bedroom, and I work in my bedroom, but I have to keep that separate. So I keep a little notebook by myself by my side or and I have one place on my phone where I keep notes if a business comes to my mind when I'm with my family Get it out of my mind and I set it back aside is going to happen, right? And if I'm at work, and my children need me, I'll drop everything for whatever they need. Within reason. You know, if my daughter just as being a 16 year old, that's different. But if she needs something, I will always answer her. I was actually interviewing Forbes Riley on a podcast, her daughter called and she said, Excuse me, my daughter's calling. She answered the phone. She said, I promised my daughter if she ever called me I would always answer her daughter doesn't miss us that because of it, make sure that that work life balance is a huge key and you build that in from the start.
Josh Tapp 29:35
That is super awesome. Really cool stories here. I know that that's super cool. Well, Sheila, thank you so much for coming on today, and we will catch you at a later date.
Sheila Davis 29:45
Awesome. Thanks stuff.
Josh Tapp 29:47
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